The nerve to ditch outdated beliefs and create what you crave Ft. Katie Shank

Want more visibility, but feel your limiting beliefs are holding you back?

Today’s guest is Katie Shank, an Estate Planning attorney who is passionate about helping people protect their assets and make sure what they’ve worked so hard to build will be protected and preserved. She firmly believes that every person should have a plan in place for the “what if” scenarios, and wants to help put your mind at ease. 

Outside of her practice, Katie hosts a podcast – What the Firm. She started this podcast as a forum for law students and newer attorneys to talk about their actual experiences working in law in detail. In addition, the podcast also discusses the oft-observed but rarely discussed “divide” between clients and attorneys, and how attorneys can make the experience more positive for everyone. Additionally, she loves to exercise, cook, spend time with her partner and son, and taught herself how to DJ while quarantining during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Katie wants to get up the nerve to stop caring about what others think (including her old colleagues) and pursue her goal of more visibility as well as advocate for lawyers who also want to have a life. 

Katie also wants to get more visible, start a Youtube show, and get rid of outdated beliefs and programming around money. 

If you’ve ever been afraid to put yourself out there for fear of judgment and criticism, or if you have outdated beliefs that cause guilt and shame, this episode is for you!

In this episode, we discuss:

  • How to create change when it might be met with a lot of resistance.
  • Risking being called “unprofessional” or alienating a client base in order to shake up your industry and make things more inclusive.
  • Making a scene in an archaic industry. 
  • Finding the loopholes for the “best case scenario” instead of the worst. 
  • Separating “money” and “greed” by shifting your mindset.

If you want to shake things up and create more impact, but outdated beliefs are standing in your way, this episode is for you!

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If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review it on iTunes or wherever you’re listening. Your reviews help us reach more people who want to get up the “nerve” to create what they crave and become unstoppable. 


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Susan Hyatt (00:00):
Is there something you wish you had the nerve to do? Welcome to, you've Got Nerve, the podcast that teaches you how to conquer your fears, upgrade your mindset, and get up the nerve to go after whatever you want. If you wish you had the guts to go all in on your goals, dreams, and desires, this show is for you. I'm Master Certified life coach Susan Hyatt, and I am so excited for you to join me on this journey.

Today's guest is Katie Shank. Katie is an estate planning attorney and she's passionate about helping people protect their assets and make sure that what they've worked so hard to build is gonna be protected and preserved. And she realizes that more people need estate plans than believe can afford them. So she seeks to provide effective and reasonably priced services for all levels of income. She firmly believes that every person should have a plan in place for the what if scenarios and wants to help put your mind at ease. So listen outside of all that work, Katie hosts a podcast. What The firm. She started this podcast as a forum for law students and newer attorneys to talk about their actual real world experiences working in law in detail. So in addition, the podcast also discusses the often observed, but rarely disgusted divide between clients and attorneys and how attorneys can make the experience more positive for everyone.

So additionally, she loves to exercise and cook and spend time with her partner and son, and taught herself how to DJ while quarantining during the Covid 19 pandemic. So Katie wants to get up the nerve to stop caring about what other people think, including her old colleagues, and pursue her goal of more visibility for the podcast. She wants to turn it into a YouTube show, and she also wants to be fearless in advocating for attorneys who also wanna have a life. Katie wants to get more visible with this YouTube show and get rid of outdated beliefs and programming around money. If you've ever been afraid to put yourself out there for fear of judgment and criticism, or if you have outdated beliefs that cause guilt and shame, this episode is for you. Welcome to the podcast, Katie.

Katie Shank (02:27):
Thank you so much, so happy to be here.

Susan Hyatt (02:30):
Well, I'm so delighted to have you because when I reviewed your application, I was, it really stood out to me because I was like, wait a minute, this is a young attorney who wants to shake things up and wants to become more visible. And anytime a smart woman who wants to make change and create impact is a little bit worried about becoming more visible, I gotta get in there and do something about it. <laugh>.

Katie Shank (02:59):
Well, great. I'm glad

Susan Hyatt (03:01):
<laugh>, you're like fabulous. Now I'm on this hot seat. Yes. So Katie, you were telling me before we started the recording that initially you thought about starting a podcast, but now you're really thinking in different terms of visibility and you're, you're nervous about maybe starting a YouTube channel?

Katie Shank (03:20):
Yes. Yeah. So, um, I'm really excited about the concept. Um, I've been an attorney since I was sworn in in 2016. Um, so for a while. Um, and before that I was working in the legal fields since 2009, like right after I graduated college. And, um, I think that it is one of those fields that is ripe for a change. Um, I think a lot of, you know, industries are, but especially in how it, um, treats women and, um, basically anyone who isn't in, um, an old white man. Um, it needs a lot of <laugh>, it needs a lot of revamping and, you know, um, I'm definitely coming up on challenges in my own business because of that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I launched my firm in August of 2021, and, and it has been, um, it's been a great experience. It's also been a little challenging because a lot of things in the legal field are, um, they're done a certain way because they've always been done that way.

Right. And making change is, um, always met with a lot of resistance mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, um, there's definitely part of me that like wants to make change, wants to make, um, this field and my law firm, you know, make it work for my life and where I'm at and what I'm doing instead of the other way around, which is, um, you know, me stretching myself too thin, um, you know, to measure up to standards that don't really matter anymore. Um, and so yeah, I really kind of just want to, um, open up the dialogue with this YouTube channel and kind of just get people talking about it. Um, you know, I really want people to, um, understand, you know, kind of like what it's really like to work in a law firm. Um, if you haven't done that before, if you are a law student or considering law school. Um, and then I also wanna talk about how we can make it better, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I think that there will be a quite a bit of, um, pushback or that there's being ruffled, so to speak, especially because, um, I'm not what most people think of when they think of someone who owns a law firm. I am, you know, under 40 and I am a woman. So, um,

I think that, um, yeah, I'm just, you know, kind of nervous for a lot of reasons about putting myself out there. Yeah. Um, but I think it's something that needs to happen and I'm excited to see where it can take me, but I'm having a hard time just like getting up the nerve to actually do it.

Susan Hyatt (06:15):
Yeah, no, everything that you've articulated, and I've worked with quite a few attorneys over the years, and in fact, when I was in college, I was a nanny for a female attorney who, um, she was married with two small boys, and she left a very established traditional male owned and operated firm. And she and her best friend went out on their own and started their own firm. And, um, so I was hired like to really be support, um, for her as she did this. So I got to watch someone do this. This would've been, you know, 91 to 95.

Katie Shank (06:58):
That's awesome.

Susan Hyatt (06:59):
Yeah. So I definitely have had the opportunity to witness a woman do that. And then also as a coach, I have had plenty of clients who were very frustrated with what you're describing in terms of if they, if they wanted to practice law, the expectations were like you're saying life, life second. And I literally just wrote a piece about you have to have your life first and business second. Like, let's build your business around your actual life. And that sounds like what you're doing. Um, but feeling nervous about basically being out there visibly saying like, Hey, the way this is is wrong and it's not structured in our favor. Um, and things need to change now. What's your biggest fear? So, so do you have a, um, concept name for your YouTube show?

Katie Shank (07:59):
I do. So I actually, um, in 2020, um, I was, um, let go from the firm that I was working at, um, right after I had disclosed my pregnancy. Um, so I had wait, wait time. Yes.

Susan Hyatt (08:16):
You worked somewhere and when they found out you were pregnant, they let you go?

Katie Shank (08:22):
Yes. Um, I was, um, technically terminated for performance reasons, but it was the day after I disclosed your pregnancy. Um, and so what I'm allowed to say about that is that the matter has unresolved.

Susan Hyatt (08:38):
Okay. But

Katie Shank (08:39):
It was definitely, um, you know, a turning point in my career, shall we say. Right. I

Susan Hyatt (08:47):

Katie Shank (08:48):
Be, I mean, you know, the world was, this was like March, or no, I'm sorry, it was April, 2020. So we were all, um, you know, at home, didn't know what was happening in the world of, you know, sanitizing our groceries and I had just found out I was pregnant. Yeah. And then, you know, I would let go from my position. Um, and so I did have time and I had started working on, you know, this idea of a podcast a long, you know, a while back. And I had done it with some, working on it with some friends, but we were both, you know, so busy, we just didn't have time to make it work. And so, um, I launched it on my own and I only, you know, ended up doing I think, like 10 episodes before, um, I delivered my son in November. But, um, and it kind of just started as, you know, like, let's just talk about what it's like to work in a law firm and you know, how we can make it better. Um, but I called it what the firm, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which I love, I wanna keep that name <laugh>

<laugh> because it's super fun. I think it's catchy. Um, you know, and it also kind of just speaks to, um, I think how a lot of women especially, but men too, feel once they are, you know, out of law school and in a farm, you're like, what is this? Like, why, why are things like this? Why is everything so archaic? Um, you know, and, um, and it's also just like, you know, spunky and fun, which is, you know, so you

Susan Hyatt (10:15):
Wanna still call it what the firm

Katie Shank (10:17):
I do

Susan Hyatt (10:17):
<laugh>. Oh my God. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with this name. Like the branding that you could have for like shirts and hats and everything, everything what the firm. All right. So I like it. Let's imagine that you decide to make it a YouTube show mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you are lining up your guests and this is gonna happen, and you're gonna publish these YouTube videos on what the firm

Katie Shank (10:51):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Susan Hyatt (10:52):
What makes you want to not do it?

Katie Shank (10:57):
Um, I mean, my first thought about wanting like, why I would not wanna do it, um, is like, I'm unfortunately concerned with what the rest of the legal field is gonna think about it. Hmm. You know, like, I think the

Susan Hyatt (11:14):
Gonna think

Katie Shank (11:15):
The legal field is so stuffy. Yeah. It's so stuffy. It's so buttoned up, Alma, you know, cloak that as being professional, but it's often, um, it's not relatable. Um, and it's, um, a lot of stuff is always talked about in the abstract and, you know, I wanna kind of like break it, break it down and strip back, you know, the curtains and, you know, talk about what this is really like. And that, um, and doing all of that brings up fear because, um, you know, obviously I'm worried about what my former employers would or if they would even see it. Um, you know, I'm not trying to disparage by any means. Um, I just think it's one of those areas that, um, like I said, it's really ready for change and, but, um, I'm not sure

Susan Hyatt (12:11):
To say, and people are people, the stuffy folk will not like it. You can count it.

Katie Shank (12:16):
No. Okay. Right. Absolutely.

Susan Hyatt (12:18):
Right. They're gonna hate it. Right. And why do we care? What are we worried will happen if

Katie Shank (12:24):
I'm worried that it will, I guess, bring, to me AI is someone who's, um, unprofessional, quote unquote, and then that would hurt my firm. Right? So I still want my clients, you know, to obviously, um, understand that, you know, um, I'm still a very professional person. I provide great services. Um, I do estate planning law mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and while a lot of my clients are kind of similar, similarly situated to me, they're like millennial parents mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I also, because of the nature of estate planning is death planning. So I often get clients that are older as well. And so I'm worried about kind of alienating that portion of my client base who may or may not understand, you know, why all of these changes that I'm talking about are important and why it's important to, um, you know, kind of make space for everyone to be able to work in the legal field if they want to and on their own terms.

Susan Hyatt (13:25):
Well, one thing that you said earlier when you were explaining to me, um, you said they sort of cloak it in professionalism, um, or cloak it as being professional mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and this is something that I've talked about before in a different way in that when, um, people are trying to tone, tone a woman down, shut a woman down, um, it's always like, be classy, be professional. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, be whatever, fill in the blank. And it's just all in an effort to shut us down. And listen, I can't tell you how many times, um, in fact this week already, it's Monday, someone has said on a Facebook ad, like, how unprofessional <laugh>. Yeah. And it's just kind of like, let's define what professional is. And so for an attorney who is offering amazing service to her estate planning clients, whether they're millennials or boomers, um, yeah. Right. Like, let's define and let's call it what it is. You know, let's define what, why you want me as your attorney, even though I'm making changes in this industry and being loud about it.

Katie Shank (14:45):
Yeah. And so I think the value that I really bring to my clients is from the customer service aspect. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, when I started working in law firms, um, my first job at a firm was in a client communications department where all I did was make sure that the clients were updated about what's going on with their files. And before that, I had worked in the service industry. So I was a hostess, I was a bartender, I was a server. Um, and so I think from those, from those positions, I really learned that, um, you know, customer service is paramount. Um, and I think that legal professionals, um, in general a lot of times tend to forget that, that, you know, um, like legal services, like we are in the business of customer service. Like we might, like, yes, we're advocating for our clients and we are, you know, writing briefs and doing all this high other high level stuff. But when it comes down to it, we're in the business of customer service. And that's what I really love to pro provide for my clients is, you know, like a personal touch. And I also just want them to always feel supported when they're, um, interacting with me or, you know, my team.

Susan Hyatt (15:55):
Well, and I think that, that, like, just listening to you talking that way about it, I think you can hit it straight on, on your podcast or on your YouTube show. It's like, let's define what actual professionalism in the legal industry is that matters to your client, right. Communication, customer service, you know, these are all things that matter. Here are the things that they cloak in professionalism that are detrimental to the people working in those spaces. And then that ultimately means detrimental to the service that the client gets. Yeah. And I think it's sort of like, you know, you can actually take the objections or the criticisms that the stodgy traditional, you know, cranky old, uh, law firms are gonna have and say, yeah, like, change is scary. Um, but these are changes that are need to happen. And here's what, what is exciting about it and what we're doing at our firm. So I think it's when we, when we worry, and you're not alone, right? Everyone listening to this podcast, every single one of y'all, <laugh>, we included, have at one point or time or are currently scared of criticism that we're gonna receive for doing something we're passionate about.

Katie Shank (17:15):
Yeah, absolutely.

Susan Hyatt (17:17):
You know, and so the great news is that when you do it, is it possible that, let's say some of your older clients do get a little like, Ugh, I saw online that she's just, you know, causing, causing trouble to get attention and she's just whatever assumption they're gonna make. And I don't think I want, I, I just don't think I want Katie doing my estate planning. Do you think it's possible that this could weed out customers that aren't meant for you and call in double, triple, quadruple the clients who are like, hell yeah. That's the kind of attorney I want.

Katie Shank (18:00):
Yeah, I think that's definitely possible. And I think that would be, um, that would be like best case scenario, right? Is that like, you know, someone comes across my work and um, is inspired to hire me as an attorney, or if they're in a different state, like another attorney with a similar point of view, um, that would be great. Um, the problem is when you go to law school, they teach you to spot all of the worst case scenarios all the time. Right? Like, that's how they taught my brain to work, is that I have to find like the all the terrible what ifs. It's so hard for me to like separate those two parts of, um, like my brain, you know, like the lawyer brain is like, all the bad things are gonna happen, you know?

Susan Hyatt (18:45):
Yeah. Another part of, of law firm culture that Right. Like can change. And I listen, you're not the first, I had a, I had an attorney client 15 years ago. One of my first clients was an attorney, and she, she told me that like, you are literally trying to go against my actual training. My actual training is to find the worst case, like <laugh>. And I've had many attorneys since. It's crazy. It's, it's like your training and it's also right. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> what, what I wrote down while you were talking is like, what let's, the business side of you has to back up and plan for the best case scenario in this visible promotion. And so while when you go to work, like you're trying to find all the, the loopholes and the problems that might happen, your business mind has gotta find the loopholes for the best case.

Katie Shank (19:41):

Susan Hyatt (19:42):
And it's, it's a like interesting dance for you to do.

Katie Shank (19:45):

Susan Hyatt (19:46):
Are you smart enough to do it?

Katie Shank (19:49):
Of course. Of

Susan Hyatt (19:50):
Course you are. And of course. And do you believe, I'm curious that this idea what the firm would keep tugging at you if you weren't meant to do it?

Katie Shank (20:12):
Um, no, I don't think that it would.

Susan Hyatt (20:15):
It's like stuff that's not meant for us just leaves us alone.

Katie Shank (20:19):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, this has been, you know, something that's been on my radar on my mind for years. And so, um, yeah, I think it's time. Like it's time to just do it, you know? And I know I'm not, um, I'm not the only one in the legal field who feels this way, you know, I think there are a lot of people, a lot of lawyers in my kind of like generation, like millennials who, um, are ready for things to change. And so, um, I think that it will be generally well received. Um, yeah. I just like, I think I just need to tell my lawyer brain to shut up <laugh> about all of this, this, you know, here, here's the,

Susan Hyatt (21:05):
Here's the thing is that, you know, 30% of your future audience, um, is gonna be obsessed and 30% of your future audience is n not gonna care. And 30% of your future audience is gonna hate on you. Yeah. Continuously. And that's just how it is. It doesn't matter. Like, so you might as well say what you think because that's what's gonna happen anyway, <laugh> and

Katie Shank (21:33):
Yeah, that's a really good point.

Susan Hyatt (21:35):
It, it's right. It's like, it, it is. I I I tell you, it doesn't matter. Like we experiment over the years, we have experimented over the years with Facebook ads, and I'm here to tell you, Katie, I can have a Facebook ad of me dressed just like this completely covered ball cap, whatever somebody's gonna say. Like, well, you would think that she would dress up for, you know, paid advertising. And I can be completely glammed out and somebody's gonna say, you know, what does any of this have to do with life coaching? And I can right. Have on a pair of shorts, and they'll say, my showing my legs are offensive, and I can be have on a suit, and they can say like, who does she think she is? Right. It does not matter. 30% are gonna troll you in some way Yeah. Shape or form.

And so what, what we have to do is like really speak to the 30% that are gonna be obsessed with our message. And you're right, you're not alone. That's the good news is that most millennial attorneys I talk to feel exact same way. Different kinds of attorneys that I work with that are millennials are doing similar things in different ways. Um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I just talked to, to one attorney who's, you know, really trying to do law differently. And another one who, um, it, you know, doesn't have anything like what the firm, but she, she definitely is like building a female online, um, firm to do things differently, different kind of law entirely. And I honestly chose my attorney, um, to do my trademarks years ago because she was talking about issues that you're talking about that like, law is not, is not built for women who wanna have families and who wanna have a life. And I was like, totally. So that's my trademark attorney. So like I'm proof positive that like the right clients are gonna say, that's my attorney right there.

Katie Shank (23:39):
Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, and, and like my business mind knows you are completely right, like you are a hundred percent right. I know that, you know, once I like put myself out there, I'm gonna attract, you know, the people, um, who will be wonderful clients, you know, like they're gonna be people who wanna support me in what I'm doing. Um, and yeah, I just need to keep telling my lawyer brain that like, um, you know, like there will be haters, but like, there's always gonna be haters. So, um, you know, let them hate, I guess. Right?

Susan Hyatt (24:17):
You do. And listen, no one likes it. Like, I don't like reading those comments. And I would say 99% of the time I'm like, just let it roll right off. And then occasionally they'll hit me on the right day, and I just use it for educational purposes. I'm like, thanks for your free content. Now let me go take it <laugh>, take your comment and go educate everybody else about how this is misogyny.

Katie Shank (24:40):
Um, it's so smart.

Susan Hyatt (24:41):
But, but I would say that, um, it's math, so there's no getting away from it and just telling your attorney minds like, Hey, you know, we're, we're actually not succeeding in this if the math equation isn't playing out.

Katie Shank (25:04):
Can you say more about that?

Susan Hyatt (25:05):
Yeah. So if your message is so vanilla that it doesn't allow for people to either love you or hate your message, then it, it's, it's not happening. It's not gonna ruin your business.

Katie Shank (25:24):
Right. Yeah. It's not gonna be memorable. It's not gonna stick out to anyone. It's just going to, you know, be something else that they scroll past.

Susan Hyatt (25:30):
Totally. Yeah. And, and listen, I've, I've worked with thousands of entrepreneurs and when people are hiding, that's when they get real bland. You know, it's like, well, let me tiptoe around this issue so they don't offend anyone. But then you're not, you're, we're not purposely trying to offend people. Right. But like, just telling the truth, <laugh> is going to be enough. So it's like, oh yeah. It's like, if you're not telling the truth, then why bother? So yeah, I think it's like, okay, are you willing to allow your business mind to tell yourself the best case scenario and develop the boundaries with your lawyer mind that like, oh, you are required over here when we're doing client work.

Katie Shank (26:16):
Right, right, right. Not in every single area of my life. Yeah. Let me

Susan Hyatt (26:20):
Just redirect you over here and then let me ask my business brain, you know, what's the best promotion right now for what the firm?

Katie Shank (26:30):
Yeah. No, I think that's, that's fantastic advice. We've actually been struggling too with just like my marketing for the firm in general, you know, just kind of having a hard time, like putting myself out there. Um, and for the same you lawyer brain, you know, fueled reasons that I'm, um, you know, nervous about criticism or, um, that, you know, so-and-so is gonna say like, my prices are too high or whatever. Um, and it's been tough to just, um, be able to push past that because I know that once I do, um, I will be attracting the, the right clients and, you know, the people that I really wanna serve. Um, but sometimes it's just hard for me to just like get over that hump and, um, you know, really put myself out there. Um, I think sometimes I even see it as like being selfish, which is, um, I don't know. It's interesting to me, you know, I try to be interested about that feeling instead of like beat myself up for it. Um,

Susan Hyatt (27:38):
It's selfish because why?

Katie Shank (27:41):
Um, because it's selfish. Because it's like, um, putting myself out there in that like, as like, I'm someone who wants to make a lot of money. I've had a lot of, um, I've had a lot of like, um, terrible thoughts about why it is, um, gonna make me like a bad person if I make a lot of money. Um, and so I've really been working on that and myself, um, and that, you know, um, telling myself that if I make a lot of money, I'm gonna be a better person. You know, like, it's like good people make a lot of money all the time. Um, I was raised in a very, um, conservative, um, Christian home, and I think one of the things that I really internalized from that is that, um, it's really awful to want, um, to be rich or, you know, to be greedy. And so I have a lot of times I have a hard time pushing past that and, you know, realizing that Yeah. Um, you know, being greedy isn't a good thing, but also, like, we live in a capitalist society, so if I wanna <laugh> right. Like get groceries and provide for my son, you know, I'm gonna have to make money. And so yeah. It's just

Susan Hyatt (29:02):
Totally, let me just interject right here and say that Yeah. Separating out, having a lot of money is different than greed, right. People who have no money mm-hmm. <affirmative> can be greedy, um, and people who have a lot of money can be greedy as well. Uh, what I have found is that the more money I make, the more impact I can have or the more, um, it, it magnifies more of who I really am. Yeah. So if you take someone who's already an asshole, <laugh>, <laugh>, and they make a lot of money Right. It mag,

Katie Shank (29:39):
Who's gonna be more of an Yeah.

Susan Hyatt (29:42):
Right? And if you take a, a person in integrity who makes a lot of money, it magnifies that. So yeah. It's like having a lot of money isn't the thing that creates greed, um, and or worth or morality or any of it. Totally. Like we ha I love that you've already done the work looking at your family of origin and where these messages came from. Right. And it can take a while to unwind the stories that we've been told and fed about what it means to want money, what it means to have money, our responsibilities when we do have money, um, and judgments that are made about that. And I think you can decide, like you have, right? As last time I checked, we have not dismantled capitalism.

Katie Shank (30:28):
Nope. <laugh>, right? Not

Susan Hyatt (30:30):
Yet. And it's not gonna happen in our lifetime. Um, and so if we are going to <laugh>, um, right. Raise a family and pay our bills and eat actual food and, and have the impact that we wanna have, it's gonna require money, right? And so I think it can be, it doesn't have to be an either or thing. It can be like, Hey, I'm somebody who, this is the kind of lifestyle I wanna live and I'm gonna make this money so that I can create change, create impact, influence policy, you know, do all these things. Um, so it's like looking at that guilt as a direct, right? That's in direct opposition to the abundance you're trying to create for all these future lawyers that wanna break out of this pattern.

Katie Shank (31:20):

Susan Hyatt (31:21):
So I think it would be interesting for you to consider, I mean, one piece that we talked about was the best case scenario, brain, business brain mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but then also I would invite you to do some work on, you know, what does it mean? What kind of impact does Katie get to have with money? What do you think?

Katie Shank (31:44):
Yeah, I haven't considered that before. Um, I think that I'd be able to have a wonderful impact, um, with money, you know? Um, I would really be able to, um, hopefully reach more people with my message that, you know, um, law firms don't have to be, uh, miserable. And, you know, I think that, um, I think the field in general would be really well served by, um, unbuttoning a little bit and, you know, not being so serious all the time, um, under the guise of professionalism. And, you know, I think that the more that attorneys, you know, kind of allow themselves to be seen just as, um, people in general and um, you know, um, allow their workplaces to be a little bit more flexible for, um, parents or, um, you know, people who are guardians or caring for someone who's sick, et cetera, um, the more that, um, they're gonna be able to resonate more with their clients too, um, you know, and like, like I keep going back to, you know, legal services. It, it is customer service. And so if everything you're doing, you know, isn't, um, with that mindset, then um, I think there are changes to be made. And so, um, I really hope that, you know, with more money, I can be able to help more people, um, by helping their attorneys.

Susan Hyatt (33:26):
Right. And so I don't know about y'all listening at home, but this sounds pretty generous to me. It doesn't sound like Greed's driving this bus.

Katie Shank (33:35):
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's really not. No, it's really not. You know, I really just, um, I think I kind of went into law school with like stars in my eyes a little bit, you know? And just, just so excited to like, you know, fight for justice, um, <laugh> as I think so many lawyers do. And then, you know, you kind of get jaded and a little bit burned out and um, it's hard to come back to, um, the real reasons that you started doing this in the first place is that you wanna help advocate for others. Yeah. And yeah, I just, I really hope that, you know, the work that I plan to do can, um, remind people of that and kind of bring that back to the core.

Susan Hyatt (34:19):
So in addition to the best case scenario, business brain mm-hmm. <affirmative>, then I would say the attorney brain that's needed here is the justice minded attorney brain. Hmm. Right. Like I'm creating what the firm for the justice that I started law school with stars in my eyes to achieve. Totally. That's how you do it.

Katie Shank (34:43):
No, you're totally right. I didn't even think about approaching it that way. And it makes so much sense, so much sense. Yeah. I have such a, um, sometimes they even call it like a justice complex. Like fairness is so important to me. Um, probably also a result of being a middle child. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But um, yeah, I think that's a fantastic way to approach it, you know, um, that law firms should be run, you know, with justice in mind for their employees, for their staff, you know, is that like everybody you know, right? Is that fairness is kind of pervasive. Um, and that would just benefit everyone in the long run, clients included.

Susan Hyatt (35:22):
So I want you to allow those stars to be back in your eyes for your business and for the justice you're about to create.

Katie Shank (35:31):

Susan Hyatt (35:32):
Are you willing to do that?

Katie Shank (35:34):
Yes, of

Susan Hyatt (35:35):
Course. Okay. So here's my thing. What's the timeline you're gonna put on the, the release of episode One of what the firm?

Katie Shank (35:43):
What The firm, let's see. Okay, so it's already February 20th. Um, let's go with one month from today. I think a month is October

Susan Hyatt (35:52):
30 days. Oh my god. We are,

Katie Shank (35:54):
Listen maybe less than 30 days since February. Right. <laugh>

Susan Hyatt (35:57):
Scott Nerve is gonna check back with you in 30 days, cuz we wanna be able to put a link to your show, like this is gonna air soon, but we were gonna update the show notes with a link to the YouTube show.

Katie Shank (36:10):
Awesome. Okay, great. Well I'm looking forward to it. I'm committed now, right? <laugh>,

Susan Hyatt (36:16):
I'm so excited. I'm on this justice bus with you.

Katie Shank (36:19):
Yeah, great. Welcome. Welcome to the bus, <laugh> <laugh>,

Susan Hyatt (36:24):
Welcome to the Justice Bus.

Katie Shank (36:26):
Yay, <laugh>.

Susan Hyatt (36:29):
Love it. Thank you Katie for being here. I know you're gonna help a lot of people. Um, so you're already on our justice bus and, um, how can people find you if they want to hire you as their attorney?

Katie Shank (36:42):
Sure. So, um, I exclusively work with clients that are in California. Okay. Um, you can find me on social media at, um, a new kind of lawyer on TikTok and Instagram, and then my website is kk law.com.

Susan Hyatt (36:57):
Well, a new kind of lawyer You are. I'm so proud to have you on the show.

Katie Shank (37:02):
Thank you so much for having me. This was super great and very helpful.

Susan Hyatt (37:09):
The next round of My Beyond Mastermind is open for enrollment where members get mind blowing results. Less than 50 days into this new year, my current members have landed multi six figure book deals, gotten sober, hit the best seller list, tripled their revenue, left an abusive partner, ditched a toxic work environment and moved to their dream destination. When you have me as the master coach in your corner, results happen and I want you to be the next apply for the next round of beyond before it sells out. Until the next episode, I'm wishing for you to get up all the nerve you need to go after everything you want.

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